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CiES fuel senders now available for 108/V77  

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moffetb
Honorable Member

From email:

CiES Inc. fuel quantity senders are now FAA approved for STC installation in Cessna 310, 320, 340, 401, 402, 406, 411 414, 421, T303, 208 Caravan. DeHavilland DHC-2 Beaver, Twin Commander 500, 600, 700 Series, Beech Duchess, Twin Bonanza, Piper PA 18 Super Cub, Stinson 108, V-77, Marchetti SF260,205, Helio Courier and the Navion

Scott Philiben
President

1375 SE Wilson Ave
Suite 150
Bend OR 97702

scott.philiben@ciescorp.com
www.ciescorp.net

1946 Stinson 108-1, Franklin 165, at one time NX8306K

Quote
Posted : 03/11/2018 5:39 am
lawheelock
Honorable Member

Scott,
I did not see Stinson or Univair in your AML on your website.
What does one have to use as an indicator with your fuel senders?
I am quite sure the original gages will not work.
Larry Wheelock, A&P/IA

Larry Wheelock, A&P/IAStinson 108 N584LW 180 LycTexas in Winter; Indiana in Summer

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/11/2018 10:00 pm
moffetb
Honorable Member

Scott is not a member on the forum, I was just posting that information from an email I received.

I'll forward your question, as I am curious as well.

Page 12 of 14 on this document: https://ciescorp.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/STC-SA02511SE-10-22-2018.pdf

Brian

1946 Stinson 108-1, Franklin 165, at one time NX8306K

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/11/2018 10:21 pm
lawheelock
Honorable Member

Thanks, Brian,
I guess I missed it on my first look thru. Easy to miss when reading sideways (display) and seemed to not have alphabetical order.
But, obviously, it is on the AML but still wonder about what it will interface with.

Larry Wheelock, A&P/IAStinson 108 N584LW 180 LycTexas in Winter; Indiana in Summer

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/11/2018 3:03 am
moffetb
Honorable Member

Email Reply:

They will work with an older gauge - they are not FAA STC approved for an older gauge but it does work.

We demonstrated this to the FAA and they were not in favor of supporting analog gauging - as you read you will realize why they made this choice

This was a project the Cardinal Club started - Yes we now can interface to an old cessna gauge - if it is in good shape and has been modified to accept an external voltage regulator

The vintage Stinson gauge should be much better - but it will also have to be in good condition - we will need one to pattern the output as well as a tank profile

I wanted to share our progress on the CiES fuel sender calibration project.

I have been working with Scott Philiben and his lead engineer, Rick, on getting their 21st Century senders to work with our 50 year-old gauges.

Like many of you, I have not made the jump to a new panel and do not have space for a standalone fuel quantity display.

I really wanted a stopgap measure to help my fuel indication until I go glass.

I installed the senders over the weekend and will help write a tech page on that job.

The Reader’s Digest version is it took about 8 hours in total to do the installation.

About half of that was time spent running an additional wire to each wing, as I really wanted the power to the senders to be derived from the factory fuel sensing circuit.

I must say the new senders are an impressive piece of hardware/software and not to be taken for granted.

Scott and Rick came over for a calibration session and we spent about 5 hours collecting data points and perfecting the map for the fuel levels.

In the process, we ironed out several problems. The first hurdle is that the OEM gauges are not precise. IMO, I likely have some of the best functioning OEM gauges in our fleet, but they still leave much to be desired.

For example, it required 5.5 volts to drive the needle from empty to the ½ mark, but only took 5 volts to move the needle from “full” to ½. This ½ volt discrepancy was mostly in the middle of the gauge scale, but it took some compromise to keep the needle where we wanted it.

The other fatal flaw in the original Cessna design is that the gauge has no internal voltage regulation whatsoever.

This means the accuracy is totally dependent on buss voltage.

As we all know, buss voltage can vary quite bit from one plane to the next. A half-volt difference is as much as a ¼ tank of error. Not acceptable! So… we added a 10 volt regulator to the b+ side of the gauges to give them a rock solid reference. Then it was a matter of trial and error collecting data on the gauge. With some effort, I’d say the results are pleasing.

The second half of the project was to collect the data on the tank. We captured the frequency output of the new senders at empty, 1/8, ¼, 3/8, ½, 5/8, ¾, full and over-full.

(My tanks hold 28 gallons each due to the Monarch caps.) Due to the sender placement and the dihedral of the wing, the float doesn’t start to move until 2 gallons are in the tank. So… “empty” is actually 2 gallons instead of 1/2. On the other end of the spectrum, we calibrated “full” as 25 gallons. Anything over 25 the needle will move to the right of full. (For 60 gallon

Cardinals, the tank is just longer, so the calibrations should hold true.) For instance, “half” a tank is still the same height of fuel in the tank.

All in all, I think we have very good results and I am eager to try it all out real world. Now that the data is collected, mapped and saved, CiES should be able to deliver analogue senders for us that work great! And, since they retain the frequency drive output, the jump to a digital display down the road is just switching the wire.

I hope this investment helps Scott and his team as well as our club. I know several of you are eager to get your hands on this kit and now it’s here! I will report more results in the coming weeks.

1946 Stinson 108-1, Franklin 165, at one time NX8306K

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/11/2018 3:01 pm
lawheelock
Honorable Member

Thanks, Brian,
This is sounding like a vast improvement, not only for Stinsons, but nearly every other plane that used the old Stewart Warner system, like my '65 Mooney.

Larry Wheelock, A&P/IAStinson 108 N584LW 180 LycTexas in Winter; Indiana in Summer

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/11/2018 6:50 am
moffetb
Honorable Member

People who have put them in the Socata TB-20 (4 fuel senders, 2 tanks) really like them.

Brian

1946 Stinson 108-1, Franklin 165, at one time NX8306K

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/11/2018 3:39 pm
Dennis Crenshaw
Estimable Member

Holy cow. So do I understand correctly that someone would have to repeat this calibration process for the Stinson the same that the Cardinal Club did? And for the Stinson you have the 20 gallon and the 25 gallon tanks, although I think the senders are in the same location and the 25 gallon tanks are just another rib bay longer, so the calibration could be done using the 25 gallon tanks. Considering the trouble and expense, it doesn't seem like a worthwhile project. A consumption rate of a gallon every 6 minutes and a dipstick work well for my purposes. A fuel flow meter/computer would be a great addition for a Stinson panel. That should provide the best accuracy. I think some Stinson owners have installed these.

Dennis Crenshaw. N6102M.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/11/2018 6:20 pm

I just discovered the "new" website.  My post on this topic, made a couple weeks ago didn't make it here.  FWIW here it is:

I'm installing the digital senders from Cies and the digital gauge from Aerospace Logic. The STC for the 108 series is dated March2019.

https://ciescorp.net/wp-content/uploads ... 190313.pdf

The original left wing sensor is out in my 108-3 and would have to replace it with one in kind and even then success remains in question. I'm tired of wondering how much fuel I have left. I am also installing a JPI FS 450G, fuel flow gauge (STC).  I have an O470J in my 108.

https://www.jpinstruments.com/shop/fuel-scan-450/

Overkill? Perhaps. But the more I think about it the less I can resist both editions. Retiring in a few months and want to take the 108 to remote places in the mountains. Did more significant mods recently as well. Very happy with all so far. Will post about all the changes I've made on a separate post later.

Cheers,
Willie Spence
N6502M

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/06/2019 9:46 pm
Karl Vogelheim
Trusted Member

@willie-spence

I was wondering what the final results were regarding the CiES senders and the Aerospace Logic fuel gauge?  Are you happy with them?  Was there a big improvement in accuracy?  Did you get calibration data that could be shared with other 108-3 owners?  I would love to hear the full story.

Karl A VogelheimS108-3 N596C

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Posted : 31/12/2019 7:45 pm

Hi Karl,

Fairly busy the last couple of months so thanks for the reminder to continue the updates.

Was in a rush to have several upgrades done in time to go the McCall Idaho in July to attend the Mountain Canyon flying seminar.  The installation did not go smoothly.

First, CiES sent the wrong senders, bolt pattern was wrong, CiES said there were 2 different bolt patterns, which I would be surprised if that were so. I paid extra to have the sending units built quickly vs waiting in que.  Installed and the shop was trying to calibrate on 3 July before being off for the weekend.  Calibration must be done with the tail in a level flight position.  They accomplished that with the tw on a pallet and lift it with a forklift. Fuel was supposed to be added 5 gal at a time.  Fuel cannot be added with the tail up because of the posture of the tank in the wing, fuel normally sits forward in the tank.  So the procedure was to put in 5 gal with the tail down, raise the tail with the forklift then run the calibration routine on the sending unit, then lower the tail and repeat.  The result was unacceptable for accuracy and will have to be recalibrated.  Since then the circuit breaker for the sending units has popped twice and the shop is going to have to track that issue down before I try to calibrate the sending units again.  The other instrument installed was a JPI fuel flow meter which works great, typically within a gallon of fillup.  I think the digital fuel quantity system will work fine once I and the shop chase out the bugs and calibrate it again.  I don't think there will be any Stinson specific data I can download and share, but if there is I certainly will.  I had the shop try this on their own initially but next time I will be there in assistance.  Probably going to find a better way than using the forklift.

I'll update in a more timely fashion when I do.  Probably in the next couple of months.

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Posted : 01/01/2020 3:52 pm
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